089: Branding Clarity is the Starting Point
Michele (0:01) Hello, my name is Michele and you're listening to Profit is a Choice. Kimberly Sundt is with us on the podcast today to discuss all things branding. Kimberly and her business focus on the four C's of branding, clarity, communication, consistency, and conversation. Today we're going to be discussing why being super clear on your branding will increase your confidence and make selling your services so much easier. We also discuss why the client experience and perspective matters and the roles that they play in your brand story. I hope you enjoy.
Michele (1:12) Hey, Kimberly, welcome to the podcast.
Kimberly (1:14) Hey, Michele, I'm so excited to be here.
Michele (1:16) I'm excited to have you here. So we're going to be talking about branding and messaging and your four C's of branding. We've got a lot of fun things that we're going to be digging into for the listeners today. But what I'd like to start with is having you share a little bit of your background, and kind of give us the roadmap of what got you to where we are today.
Kimberly (1:40) And it has been a journey and a complicated roadmap and a lot of paths and twists and turns. I'm thrilled where I am today. So like we often hear that journey is usually worth it. I'm originally from North Carolina, and after I graduated from school, I spent two years traveling with an organization sort of like Disney World meets a foreign exchange program. And so I traveled all over the world for two years. I stay with host families and do all of this work. And it wasn't until recently that I understood how that affected what I do now, which I'll get into in a second. And I studied advertising and journalism. I was always planning on being in that world. And I have stayed in communication, just about everything I've ever done. But I got into the hotel industry, and primarily the luxury hotel world. I was primarily doing marketing and public relations. And what I didn't say at the time, because I don't think I realized it, it wasn't in our vernacular, it's not how we spoke and talked about our jobs. I was doing customer experience. We were creating experiences for every guest who walked through that hotel. So life goes on, I moved to Manhattan. I'm doing the same thing, but I called it public relations. And then I call it marketing. I was working for four seasons, I had great, great clients. But it was all about what is the experience was like. It wasn't what the guests were experiencing. It was what my clients were experiencing. So that general manager or that director of marketing. When I moved to Atlanta about 10 years ago. Somehow I can't even trace all the steps, but I came into the interior design world. And at the time, the editor of Atlanta Homes & Lifestyles magazine, we had met. He asked if I would come and fix the designer experience for their designer show houses. And I thought to myself, "Hmm." This is years ago. It's like, "Wow, I'm not sure I've been to a show house. My mother didn't have a designer come into her home. But I've got this." And it was the same skills I had developed throughout my entire corporate career. And the idea was, he said, "It's hard to be in a show house. It's expensive and it takes so much work. We want to make sure that when designers are in our show houses, it's the best experience that they can have. That went on to creating and producing all of the show houses. So I had an interesting perspective on the world of interior design in the southeast. Working with Eric and Mark and I finally figured out that when I approach branding and marketing, I do it through the lens of the client experience. And it's just a different way of looking at it. But it's a little bit of reverse engineering. But it's also, especially today making sure that your customers and your clients are one of your strongest marketing tools. So it's all interrelated.
Michele (4:29) I love that. I love to do reverse engineering. I always do backward financials and tell me where you want to be. And let me help you get there because we have to define the gap. Right?
Kimberly (4:39) Yeah.
Michele (4:40) But again, I love it too. Because as you said, it's about that client experience, not just the customer experience, but your client experience. And so how interesting and how forward-thinking for Atlanta Homes & Lifestyles to say if we're going to put on a showhouse, let's think about how those designers are. You're talking about the designers did each room, right?
Kimberly (5:05) Right. Exactly.
Michele (5:05) Not just the customer designer that walks in the door to partake of the beauty everywhere, right? But those that were involved in creating the home, let's make sure that their experience in being in a showhouse is good. Listen, there are so many moving parts in that right.
You've got the homeowner or whoever owns the property that you've got to keep happy or investors or whoever that happens to be. You've got the company that's sponsoring it. And then you can have 20,30 or even more sometimes designers based on the spaces and the indoor and the outdoor and the landscaping and then all of their details. It's so much more than we even can think of to manage that. And then they even care that their experience is positive enough that they would want to come back and potentially do it again or give good information to others who were seeking a similar experience.
Kimberly (6:05) But if you think about it, you're right, it was forward-thinking. It was very much in building their own brand. The magazine was strengthening its brand by focusing on the experience. And you're talking about all the moving parts. Usually, a show houses either a renovation or a new build. So just imagine the number of contractors who are there and the construction teams. So if you just want to have like one little moment to bring to life, how insane it can be. Imagine 24 separate moving trucks in three and a half days when the driveway is not yet poured. That's real.
Michele (6:44) Yeah, a lot. Yes. Yeah, just so many people coming in and out so many tradespeople. just, You don't even like again, think about the exterior of the home. You've got landscape architects and landscape companies. I'm just saying if anybody's ever been to one, just if you were to step back and think about the project management of that, it's a long time. And usually, there's a very short window from the time that the designers are getting access to their space until the end.
Kimberly (7:19) Exactly.
Michele (7:20) But there's so much pre-work that is done to make that happen.
Kimberly (7:23) Oh, you're so right. I think that might have been when I realized how much I loved working with designers. I remember and I don't think she'll mind me saying her name on air. Beth Webb said to me to my very first show house, and she was doing the dining room. She said, "Kimberly, you must just think we're all horrible. I bet you hope you never run into any of us in town and know where the biggest pain we're so demanding." And I said, "You know what, Beth, I'd never thought about it. But the designers, you're the ones who helped me find the motivation to do this every day. When there's no driveway and there's no walkway and the rooms haven't been painted. Yeah, because your standards are so high. And you work so hard. And you are so detail-focused, and you have this attitude of, we're going to make it happen. It's going to happen. And that's how I think. So like I said, You're the ones who make it easier. You're the magic that brings all of this together." So it was an interesting perspective shift for me, I hadn't thought about it that way, which is so true.
Michele (8:25) Yeah. And it's easy to be part of a team with others who have the same focus, right? Who wants to push forward the same way. What's difficult is when that's not what they want to do. And so designers in the grand scheme of things they're used to that all day every day. Just having to show up with things in a mass or having to have a pair of boots in the back of their car or vehicle that they put on to trudge through a construction site or a hardhat sitting to the side. They're used to that. So they're not shocked. But that customer experience, client experience based on who you're serving. And that does come into play a lot with branding, simply because our brand is what people think about us.
Kimberly (9:08) Absolutely.
Michele (9:10) To boil it down your brand is what other people think when your company name has said.
Kimberly (9:14) 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, that's not necessarily what we said. But that is what it is, is the sum of all of the perceptions. I mean, what are the things I sometimes say...they're there 24,000 different definitions of branding out there. But I say it's the combination of the expectation, the experience, and the emotional connection to have a strong brand today. I do believe we have to make an emotional connection with our customers. Make them feel something and think something.
Michele (9:48) I agree with that. And that emotional connection. Our hope is for it to be the one that we want to be.
Kimberly (9:54) Absolutely.
Michele (9:54) Right. I know even in my own business, I am very intentional about most things that I do. I try to be intentional about everything. I would never say that things don't slip through the cracks. But I also try to be very intentional about how people feel when they work with me or after working with me or even before they work with me. And I think that that is part of the emotional connection. And if we are not careful about building the story... I always say create the story you want to read, write, share, and if not, somebody else is going to write it for you.
Kimberly (10:03) Oh, so true, so true.
Michele (10:30) So write your story before somebody else has the opportunity to do it. And then you keep putting it out there. But then that puts you if you will, if we were thinking of the story analogy, it puts you in control of the storyline. It puts you in control of how the characters are going to behave and where they're going to go? What's going to happen? I mean you know this right, just from walking into a deal with any client in any situation. If you don't go driving it. They're going to drive it. Somebody is going to get into the driver's seat.
Kimberly (11:01) Right.
Michele (11:02) And the same is true with our brand.
Kimberly (11:04) And when you have a client, they are hiring you to do something for your service or perhaps a product. But in our case, usually, the service that you're going to provide. They want you to be driving it. If they could already drive that truck, they may be doing it themselves, they want you to be in charge. So you have to think through that and make those, I call them deliberate decisions. We're not just making decisions back and forth. It's with deliberation. And those decisions are usually so much stronger. But I think we have to understand our businesses and do what you teach and coach so well and understand our brand. What does it stand for? What does it mean? What it looks like and how it walks and talks. Then we can make much smarter decisions.
Michele (11:47) Right? And of course, Like the title of my podcast, Profit is a Choice. I think everything's a choice. And I look at profitability. As we've had a separate discussion about this. Profitability is not just talking about Money. It's talking about the profitability of our brand. You have a stinky brand, and it's going to impact your bottom line, it's going to impact the profitability of your ability to even reach your clients and do what you do for them. It's all going to come outright. And so I'll tell you something that I've seen a lot is I see people jump into... We kind of had a tiny bit of a pre conversation about this. And I was like, "Whoa, pump the brakes." We gotta get her on-air before we keep talking. Okay, we can sit and talk for a whole hour and I would never hit record. Yeah. But I have seen in my 20 years experience with just working in this industry and with other business owners that sometimes especially once brand became a thing. I'll be honest, when I started back in 2000, having a brand wasn't a thing. We talked about maybe the client model or the customer experience to set us apart. But the idea of a brand was certainly not one that was making the rounds. And so when it did become, I would say even in the last 5 years maybe where branding started showing up on the scene hot and heavy for all industries. And creating more of that whole lifestyle brand. The whole big idea of a brand, right, not just the logo. It used to be that the logo meant that was your brand, which we know is not the case, but that was kind of what people saw as synonymous. But what I've seen Kimberly is people want to jump into a branding exercise or start working on their branding, and they don't even know who they are and what they want to do. And I know from working with many creating a company and a brand based on what you think other people think you should be doing.
While there may be a slim chance that it fits for you. It's not always the idea that is going to lead you where you want to go. And so we got to have an idea of what our company is like? And what are we doing? What do we even want? What do we want to be doing? And then work on building a brand from that. Because I'll tell you, I've got people coming to me that are listening to podcasts or reading blogs, they're working with other people, they're watching other designers, and they have an idea of what they think they should be doing. And they're saying to me, I'm building a brand that does that. But I don't even really want to do that. Do I have to do that? I'm thinking, "Oh, my gosh, please stop." Don't go build this company. It stresses me out for them. Because of looks, I got a business that I created that I love and adore. And there are still things that I am shifting and changing because I'm growing. Like here's what I want to do now. I don't want to be stuck doing the same thing I did seven years ago. Nobody does unless you're choosing to do that. But they're now taking on the weight of who they should be based on other people so that any brand they create out of that is not necessarily one that even resonates. And I know in your foresees that's going to show up later and how you present yourself. I had a client one time, Kimberly, they didn't even love her logo. My answer to everybody loves your logo. Love it. Love it. Love it, love it. I've been involved in a couple of Facebook groups. You know, here's my logo. Here's what they did for me. What do you think? I'm not sure. And I'm like, "Look if you don't love it, start over."
Kimberly (15:33) No kidding.
Michele (15:34) Start over because it holds you back. And the same is true about your brand. If you don't love your brand, you need to work on that because that's what we're putting out into the world. Why would I put something out that I didn't love? I can't stand behind it.
Kimberly (15:49) Oh, exactly. And I think anyone who has had a logo created or created their own, usually we hire someone to do that. And you don't already have all that brand foundation and brand clarity work done. I honestly think you're not being fair to yourself, you're not being fair to your business. You're not being fair to that person that you're hiring to either create your website or create your logo. Sometimes you'll have a designer but a graphic web designer who will have you do a creative brief and fill out some paperwork and answer some questions. But most of the time what they do is stuff I can't do. I don't build websites. But I can help create an understanding of the brand. Who it is and what it is and what it wants to say to the world. The problems that the company, that business is solving and for whom, and I bet then they'll build a logo that you are proud of. You feel like you represent you. I started my business in 2007. And then I wasn't doing sort of the same thing. I didn't go around talking about I'm going to help you build your brand. That's not what I said then. So I also think that the way the word is used right now, the way the word brand is used, it confuses people, especially folks who aren't in the industry. I was at an industry event, and there was a panel. And they kept using the word brand, in my mind in place of the word business. So they'd say things like, "Oh, do you ever work with that brand? Oh, did that brand hire you?" You're really talking about business? I'm like, "No wonder people are confused." And I also think because I'm in this group, I think the brand strategist and the marketing folks out there often make it too complicated. It's not necessarily on purpose, but sometimes I want to say, "Okay, well, let's just stop listening to everyone else. And let's just answer some questions and listen to ourselves. And we're going to find the right answers. We're going to find that clarity."
Michele (17:52) That's so true that listening to yourself. And I think one of the things that I do well in my coaching is to try to teach people how to hear their voices. Right? And not to be distracted by the noise of everybody around us telling us what we should and shouldn't be doing. I mean, there are certainly great principles that will guide our lives and will guide our businesses. But until we can learn to trust ourselves, and not feel bad about it, I've got a great designer that I coach, and she wanted to shift her business. I'm hoping she's going to come on and talk about it. I'm working on it right now. And her fear was the part of the project that she loved the most wasn't necessarily the part of the project that other designers look. Right. I'm sorry, let me back up. She loved a part of the design process that most designers don't love. And she was on it, which is cool.
Kimberly (18:52) Exactly.
Michele (18:53) Right. But she didn't see it that way. Because the noise says that part of the project is horrible. It's terrible. I hate it, that for her to step up and go, Oh my gosh, that's the part that I love almost seemed like there was a disconnect, something was wrong. And what we've now done is we have taken what she loves that everybody else hated. And we've made that like her unique sales proposition, right? That's like, and all that means is, it's the reason that they're all hiring her now. It's because I hate this, you love that let's work together, you go do what I hate to do, and you love it. And so, she was holding herself back. It was her perception.
Kimberly (19:34) Exactly. And that's one of the things I focus on with my clients. It might be one of the biggest parts. It's not just through grant clarity, it's through all the entire process. It's to stop thinking about being better. I know we're all going to look at our competitors. We're going to see what other people are doing. That's fine, but don't even think of them as competitors and stop trying to say what makes me better. How can I be the best? What makes you different? The question is, How are you different? Why are you different? What does that look like to your customers? What does that look like to you? How can you put that into words? And how can you bring that to life? Where does it have value? Why does it have value? That's, the key is what makes you different. And again, I don't think I would have said that. It may have been true 5, 10 years ago, but I'm not sure that's what I would have focused on. I don't think I realized how important it really is, especially in today's world of digital marketing. It's critical, and you have to do it.
Michele (20:34) Well. The differentiator is the best way to say that, which is what you said, what makes you different. And I do remember when I was first being taught about brands, it was what makes you better. And all of these words are very kind of subjective, to some degree, right? What one thinks is better, another might not.
Kimberly (20:53) Right.
Michele (20:54) I remember in the workroom world, people were then looking at oh my gosh, I have to rip out stitches sometimes, maybe I'm not better than them. And I'm like, "What makes you different? Maybe you answer the phone and they don't? Have you ever thought about that?" And we don't think about to your point, when you started the conversation Kimberly, the entirety of that experience to the client. That can be what it is. I tell my clients all the time, you know what the thing that makes you different is you. I love this thought I put it in a blog years ago. But even if you have identical twins, their thoughts aren't the same.
Kimberly (21:34) That's great.
Michele (21:35) Their thoughts are not the same. They might have a lot of the same things in common, but not every single thing that goes through their brain is the same. They have a way that they perceive input and then make decisions on that. And so, therefore, things that you might physically look at and think you're identical, they're not. And so if we can then start to appreciate kind of the I would say the full complement of everything that we as individuals bring to our company, and hence to our brand, then we can start to own it. Because we're just owning the bits and pieces and parts of ourselves that we're putting out. Right?
Kimberly (22:15) Exactly, exactly. And I think about it, though we're not. Maybe this applies to men also, but especially to women, we didn't grow up to celebrate what makes you different. We grew up wanting to fit in. And so it's no surprise that we do this. That we say, "Oh, I want to be the best, or I want to be better than so and so. It's not a good way to think, but it's understandable. And I think if you can have that, I talk a lot about shifting your perspective, and when you can have that perspective shift. And really, I think if you don't figure out what makes you different, there's no way you're going to be as successful or as happy. If you figure out what makes you and all of this uniqueness and specialness that you bring to the table, then you get to live that as a business owner. I mean, most interior designers at least start by themselves or maybe with a business partner. But we're not starting usually with a staff of 40 or 10. And so that's what you're bringing to the table is those unique skills and those gifts that you've been given that someone needs, and they need them just the way that you're giving them. And those are the clients that you're going to find, once you define it, have that clarity and figure out how to communicate it.
Michele (23:24) Right. So what are some of the things that you think need to be done before even creating a brand and we'll talk about creating? You and I talked about beforehand, it's having a good understanding of some degree of who you are as the owner of the company. I'm a firm believer that you need to know your why, good ole Simon Sinek.
Kimberly (23:45) Me too.
Michele (23:45) You've got to know why you do what you do in general and in life, and then how does that translate into the why or the vision for the company.
Kimberly (23:52) Absolutely. I think you have to look at your values. I think because of the industry we're talking about right now, your values, and your brand values they may not be the same, but they are close. There's a lot of similarities there
Michele (24:09) They will not be opposed to each other.
Kimberly (24:11) Exactly.
Michele (24:12) Even if they're not the same.
Kimberly (24:14) Yep, you'll know Oh, those two work together. I think you also really look at your customers or your clients and the problems they have. Why are they even looking for an interior designer? And I think you need to go in and think through that. I think the most effective way to find out is to ask them. You can talk to former clients and even just people you know, who would consider hiring an interior designer. Whether it's you or not, and ask them why and why not. And where do you go to find a designer? Do you read magazines? Do you go to show houses? Do you get online? Just find out where the bucks are. And so what can we do to help make it easier for them when they're trying to hire designers. I mean, go into Facebook groups and see what they're saying. This can sound a little negative. It's not. But I mean, I have other people who do it, I do it. Sometimes I'm looking at their Instagram feed, I'm looking at those conversations, because I'm like, they may be having different conversations. And we all do it differently. I'm like, What are people saying? What are they asking? What are the questions? So I think when you can understand we've got the whole ideal customer Avatar and all that. I agree with it to a point because I think if you don't really understand your customer, your client, and what she needs, and the transformation that you're providing and what the benefits are, then it's really hard to talk to her. And when it comes to writing copy and captions, and your website, you want to talk to that person. It makes it so much easier. Once you figure out who she is or who you think she is, and how she talks. What podcasts does he listen to? What does she read? What magazines do you read? What does she watch on Netflix? You can figure that out. And I think it makes everything you do stronger. So we spend time on the service that you're providing. Who your customer is, I call the next section, your differentiator. And we talk about everything, packaging, promise, all that kind of stuff, values and purpose, a brand personality. And then we go into communication, which is brand voice, and all that kind of stuff. The other thing I think, is entrepreneurs, is when you have this grand clarity, and when you feel solid, even before you're doing your marketing, you both strengthen and simplify the marketing that you're going to do. And the thing I love the most is I think we have more confidence in what we're doing. I mean, I've gone through the whole thing myself. I'm like, wow, once I did this, I'm like, I know what I'm supposed to say here. I know what I believe in this and I know how to communicate it. So the confidence piece is not one of my four C's, but it probably should be. The confidence piece is serious and it's real. We all need support there. I think no matter what chapter of our businesses that we're in.
Michele (27:07) One of the things that I think is even before you start the business, for example, let's say that we were a designer who's been in it within a year. And so we have a couple of clients kind of under our belt, projects that we've completed. It is sometimes easier to go through some of these processes or discovery. You're thinking, I've worked with this person, I didn't like that person. I tried this. I tried that. So you've got a little bit there. But you can even do all of this before you ever open the doors and start. It's about saying, What do I want to do? Right? Not just what do my clients want, but what do I want to do? What problem do I want to solve? What problems do I think I can solve and how could I solve them. Starting that train of thought and I'm just making that point because I know we have people listening that sometimes are even investigating whether they should start a company. And I don't want him to think you should already be knee-deep or ankle-deep or waist-deep in the business before you do this. I've always said there's no wrong time to get your branding right. There's no wrong time to get your pricing right. Get it right. Even in everything that I teach, even my new aim methodology that I'm focusing on for scalability, it is all done to create clarity in the strategy. And I'm talking business strategy, right. The clarity in the business strategy, confidence in decision making, and then control of the business. We could take those same three C's that I use and put them on top of yours.'
Kimberly (28:38) Exactly.
Michele (28:39) Clarity and your brand and messaging will give you confidence and the communication of that and control of the story you tell.
Kimberly (28:46) Right. It's power. Yeah.
Michele (28:47) It's all the same. That's what we're all looking for. Whether we're looking at our numbers, our business, our marketing, and our branding. I will say I think the biggest shocker for me when I got my arms wrapped around all of it. I've not been afraid to tell the podcast listeners that marketing is the part that I've not enjoyed. I just didn't. Now I'm starting to really enjoy it. Because I'm starting to understand more and more and more. There's a lot to it. That's like people who tell me I don't know that I can ever love the financials. And by the time we're done, they're like, "Yeah, man. I own those."
It was a lot of power. Yeah. But I think if I could go back to anything with branding before we even move forward, it's just to put these exclamations on it. It starts with the business owner. It's a top-down conversation. And we have to learn to listen to ourselves. The markets are going to react, you and I talked about that. You said, "It's the magic in the middle." And I said, "Yeah, it's almost magnetic." And you're like, "It's a real thing." And that is when we find out who we are. Then we're able to articulate it beautifully in words. It hits the mark with that ideal client. And I agree we have to have the avatar. We just don't want it so darn narrow that we think they all have to be named Julie. We're all screwed, right? Because there's only one Julie that comes around. It's ideal, but it's not perfect here. And then, but when we have our brand and we know who we are, we know what we do. And we know how we serve and how beautifully we can do it. And you take that and you put it out into the world and you go, here's who I am and what I do. The person who resonates with your message. They hear their problem being described and solved by your words. They are just pulled to you. Michael Porter said in the book, Book Yourself Solid. He said "Sales is never about coercion. It's never about twisting somebody's arm. It's about putting out what you already do. And saying here's what I solved the problem I saw in the person with needs going to come."
Kimberly (31:01) Right. Right.
Michele (31:01) And that's what it is.
Kimberly (31:03) It is. I remember a long, long time ago, I was in public relations. And I've never loved selling. I've gotten past it, but I've never loved it. And if you look at PR, you're pitching editors and writers all the time. And when I had that mindset shift of, oh, wait a minute. They need content. They need the stuff to write about. They've got a magazine to get out every month or newspaper every single day with the design section or the travel section. And I have really solid, good information that has value. When I started thinking of it that way. I'm like, I'm not selling them. I'm not coercing them. I'm not trying to convince them. I am helping them. I'm providing them something they need. And it was magic because it felt great. I'm calling so and so in the travel section of the New York Times, I say, "Hi, I've got this. Are you looking for it?" She's like, "Oh my gosh, I'll get called all the time." They knew that we had valuable content and information that they needed.
Michele (32:05) Yes
Kimberly (32:05) It's where it meets as we said earlier, that's where the magic is. And it feels so good. Once you start to do that, and then those clients will find you. You then work with them, it could become a struggle. Maybe when you're starting, it becomes so exciting and it feels so good. Confidence builds because you feel more grounded, more confident in what you're doing, and the way you're doing it.
Michele (32:32) One of the things I've always said is I hated, like, self-promotion. And I changed my mindset.
Kimberly (32:39) Yes.
Michele (32:39) Solution promoting. And so I'm not promoting Michelle, I'm promoting, I can solve that problem or Scarlet Thread Consulting can solve that problem. If you have that problem. I have the answer, which is similar to the way that you talked about. Instead of you feeling like you're always kind of asking for something, you're offering something. That's why we'll hear over and over and over give value, give value. It's because that's what builds the communication. And the relationship that makes people want to work with you. So as we move forward, we've talked about some of the things to kind of work out in advance. When you go into your branding process Kimberly yours is the four C's. And your first one is brand clarity. So we've kind of touched on it a little bit. Is there any other thing that you would want to say for brain clarity before we move through? And let me ask this, how can you tell if a brand has clarity? How can you tell?
Kimberly (33:38) Because I can figure out who they are. I have an emotional connection. I experience something when I'm on their website, or if I'm on their social media. And the other thing that I can always tell when they don't have brand clarity is that they don't have brand consistency. There are so many ways. It can be overwhelming and I have a couple of ways to make it not quite so overwhelming. When you think about the client's touchpoints which is everything from the way you answer the phone, to what your contract looks like, to the emails that you send to your team and what they do to your presentation, to the install. Your invoice, your invoice is a touchpoint, It is just as important. So when all of those things are consistent with your brand, and I see that consistency throughout. I don't need to see your logo and I can still probably guess that it’s you then I think I'm pretty sure they have some brand clarity. And I can tell what makes them different from every other person in this whatever city who's doing the same thing that they're doing. I think designers don't realize this because I hear it all the time. Interior designers are so poised to create great client experiences. They create spaces that have a soul and that causes people to feel something. I sometimes also like to say a great experience is where logic meets emotion. You want to feel something, but it's got to work.
Michele (35:14) Right? We want something that we feel to be a positive something.
Kimberly (35:18) Yes, yes. If you're designing a home office, and you have this antique chair, it is valuable. It is gorgeous, but it's the most uncomfortable thing you've ever sat in. Well, it may be beautiful, it may be a good experience to look at it. It also has to be a good experience to use it. And designers know this. This is what all of you who are listening, this is what you do best. So you've already got the brainpower to create great experiences that relate to your brand. I think often you need a roadmap and some tools to do it because it's not what you're used to doing every day. But I think that's one of the things that I find so exciting about working with this industry. It is that we'll be working together, we get to the client experience part and the brand consistency. They're like, "Oh, yeah, oh, that means I need to do this, I need to do this." I'm like, "Okay, you just go run because you got it, you've got it." The brand consistency part is huge. I often take brand consistency back to trust. Because if your customers and your clients start seeing things that aren't consistent, you're one way on social media. But you're a different way in person. I have a story and this is real. This has happened in Atlanta. It was a home store that's opening in the neighborhood where I used to live, and they were all over social media. I wrote a blog post just about this. And the blog post is called is your social media personality better than your in-person personality? It's real. So I'm like, "Oh, I can't wait until you guys open." I was talking on their Instagram and their Facebook page, and I'm getting heart, heart, like, like. They were like, "Oh, Kimberly, we can't wait to meet you." It's all super perky. It's super happy. And I went into the store about four days after they opened. They were not perky or happy. I went in maybe a month later, the same thing. I was like, "Okay, is it because I'm in workout clothes, and I'm just not good enough for the store?" I felt fabulous on Instagram and Facebook with your brand. And I feel like I don't fit in or belong at all in the store. And I never went back, ever. I walked past it almost every single day.
That consistency, I just didn't know what they were. And I think we've got so much coming at us every single day. I mean, yes, everyone listening is a designer, but we're also customers. We have so many messages coming at us every day. That is the consistency drops... Then we don't think, "Oh, well. I don't trust that person. I'm never going to work with her." But something just goes Hmm. Okay, that didn't click. I talk a lot about connecting the dots in people's heads. The minute there's something that's not consistent, a dot does not connect. Now you might be able to go from A to C and miss B once in a while. But you've got to keep those dots connected. And I don't think anyone's out there graphing it out and saying, "Oh, this is the reason I love this person or I don't, but it feels different." When it's consistent, and those dots are connected, you feel something different, and you trust. And that trust is so important when they do become a client. When something does go wrong, or something's late or somebody made a mistake, that trust that you've already established way before they ever hired you, that trust is going to help get you through that. Get both of you, you and your client through that in a positive way. It's an interesting place here in Atlanta called Sama. It's this restaurant, that's also a yoga studio. They do 25 minutes of yoga, 10 minutes of meditation, and 10 minutes of breathing. It's fascinating. It's so good for the mindset. And the teacher. She teaches every Monday and she did something different last week, really different.
Kimberly (39:01) I won't get in all the details, but it was just way off of what she normally does. And afterward, there were only two of us in class. She said, "Were you guys okay with that? Because I was nervous about doing something so different." And I said, "You know what? Because I trust you. And I know you're the expert at what you do. I trusted that what you chose for today's class was going to help me. So I was able to relax into it. If I didn't trust you, The whole time my mind would have been. "What are we doing? What are we doing? Why are we doing? This isn't what we're supposed to be doing?" So trust is one of the most important things for you to build. And it's certainly not the only way but brand consistency is a huge part of that.
Michele (39:37) Yeah, there's always that know, like, trust. When they know you and they like you, they trust you. And what we don't understand is we start building trust, it's not fair to say that we don't understand it. But maybe what we don't put enough importance on is that trust begins the minute they see our instant posts. The minute they see our Facebook posts. The minute they see us show up in any way. I already know from, as do probably most people. When you go out and you listen to other people talk or speak or you see them in the way that they respond to other people, you already start to form opinions. I have people that will call me and they act like they already know me. They already trust me. Good grief, I put enough blog posts out there and I put enough podcasts out there. They feel like they know me. They feel like we already are in a relationship even though I've never seen them or met them. And I love that. I remember when I was an instructor and owner at CHF Academy, and I would show up. People would come up to me because back then I was doing a webinar every month, but they never saw my face. And so it was constantly like, "Oh my gosh, I recognize your voice." My husband and kids are giggling all the time. Just in my normal day to day life, they're like, "How do people tell you everything about themselves?" Like how did you meet somebody for the first time at the hibachi restaurant, and the woman just pours out all of her issues to you while you're eating hibachi next to her. I'm like, "Because I create an environment intentionally and just by natural ways of saying, this is safe, and we can talk." And that's important as a coach. It's important as a designer, to make that person feel safe. They're already very nervous the way you kind of felt like, Am I not good enough to be in that store. I'm in the Atlanta market too. It breaks my heart for that to be in any place. It makes me think of Pretty Woman, right. Where Julia Roberts goes into the thing and they won't help her because of how she's dressed.
Kimberly (41:43) Exactly.
Michele (41:43) Right. And then she comes back in and says, “Big mistake”, with all the bags in our hand. I always love that. And I have felt that way going into stores before I went to a sister's weekend in Greenville, South Carolina a couple of years ago and on their main street, there was this little shushu, fifi, One of those super high in stores. You know what I mean.
Kimberly (42:01) Right. Yeah I know, the main street.
Michele (42:02) And some of those super high ends were like, a scarf is $350. And we walked in because we didn't know who they were, we were new in town. We were just looking. I didn't know that I'm going to say in air quotes for those who can't see me, their brand. And we walked in, and we had on jeans and jackets. We were walking up and down the street. And they looked at us like you don't belong here. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." I walked outside and my heart just clenched. And one of the things that I know I want to do and my business and I know you do, as well, Kimberly, from our prior conversations. When people come to me, they're not always coming to me in an awesome place. They do come to me when things are going really, really well. They want to go bigger, better, but they're usually coming to me with a pain point. And sometimes it's around an area that they have lost control or have a lack of control. And there's already that feeling of, "Oh my gosh, I'm struggling." Nobody wants to go put your struggle out in front of everybody. Right?
Kimberly (42:02) Right.
Michele (42:02) Unless you trust who you're saying that to. When they come to you and they go, "Hey, I need help with my brand or I need help with my messaging." It is because I can't do this by myself. There's already a need that I have. Our designers and workrooms and upholsterers and stagers who are listening and are going into those homes, They are providing that exact same thing. And so I'll tell you why I think consistency is huge. So I was in, I'll say a town. For those that are listening that are in that town, you'll know. But they recommended this restaurant to me. They wanted to take me there, they thought it would be an awesome place. It's always awesome for them. We went in that night, they were having a bad night. The server literally threw my broccoli at me. I've never had broccoli thrown at me. But she took the plate and slung it at me. And the two women who had taken me to eat sat there with their jaw dropped in their eyes like bugging out of their head. And we started talking about our reputation. So now what about that company brand? And what about their reputation? And what about their consistency? And thankfully, I've been back since then and had a pleasant experience. But you know, if that's that same feeling that you got of it, we're all hyped up on Instagram and then we're going to act like we barely know you when you walk in the door. And so I've always said this, I want to be the same person on Monday through Saturday, who shows up at church on Sunday.
Kimberly (44:34) I love that. I might use that. That's brilliant.
Michele (44:37) Yeah, I mean, I don't want the people that know me in one aspect of my life, to be shocked when they see me in another aspect of my life because of how I'm behaving or what I'm doing. So I work really, really hard to be a whole well integrated Michelle, which then brings that into my business, so that every time you interact with me, my hope is that it's a similar experience.
Kimberly (45:01) Right.
Michele (45:02) And then that's the word that I hopefully am putting out there. Right?
Kimberly (45:05) I agree completely. And I think something that we forget to think about, we often think about the client. The person who is paying us to design their home or a room or whatever space it is. But sometimes we forget about the other people we work with who are part of our team. Sure. We've got our junior designers, whatnot, but what about the contractors you work with and the moving folks and the installers and the wallpaper folks? All of those people become an extension of your brand. And they need to understand you, and you need to be that wonderful person you are when you're with your client. You need to be that wonderful person with that contractor and that wallpaper installer too, because first of all, if you're not, then you've got some brand work to do. And you might have some personal work to do. And I know there's a lot of challenges when something's being built and you got everything in the warehouse and it's not all coming at the same time. There's the wrong fabric, I know. But if you can get all of that next level of constituents to understand your brand and be able to explain it, and explain who you are and why you're so special and different. That is gold when it comes to marketing.
Michele (46:13) I'm doing a high five happy dance over here, right? So I am again, we're just so on the same page with this. I have sent an email to those that are in key positions in my firm. And I've said to them, this is who we are, this is what we do. Here's our ideal client, here's how we serve it. Here's our promise. Here are the myths. Here is every single thing you need to know. They know the value statements, they know the why, like I've given them that information. And as tiny little tweaks are made, I push that information back out. If they are in any way speaking on my behalf, which means the minute... I'm not talking about just speaking to my clients, but speaking to others. That's what we don't always even consider, how we treat our vendors or how we treat those that are around other people. They're calling them and asking. We're all checking each other out.
Kimberly (47:10) Yes.
Michele (47:11) I mean, we should be and we are. And so if the wallpaper guy says or woman says, "Oh, that designer. Wow, he's a handful or she's a handful. Don't you know it's gonna get around? I know it gets around, you know, the Atlanta market is tiny. It seems vast, but it is not. And you will know, who treats their clients well, who terribly treats their team members. You will know.
Kimberly (47:39) You do know. And that is so funny that you're bringing this up because I had an experience that sort of led me to do what I'm doing now. So when I was producing show houses more than once, and this was usually when we had like a big, big, big-name designer. So she had big teams, and I would meet some of those team members and this didn't happen two or three times. This happened multiple times and not just in Atlanta in other markets where I've done this too. And sometimes those team members, I thought, "Oh, they're so angry and so mad and just grumpy. I'm not gonna like this designer." I thought that several times. And every time the designer was fabulous, we have become friends with some of them. I'm like, "Okay, well, what, let's take a step back here. Why isn't the team living your brand? Are they nervous?" I get it. It is human nature. They like, "Okay, she's a big deal.” And it's my job to make this go smoothly. They haven't put in the baseboards yet. So I don't know what to do". So I think that's part of it is the level of experience, but to go in and help your team understand. I do some workshops when I work with clients who have more than two people usually. And we'll go in and make sure they understand what that experience should look like. How you bring it to life and what you can do when you're the junior designer, to make sure that happens. It's your job. That is part of your job in this role is to protect the brand. And I think when we realize that and understand the importance of it and understand that we give people some tools to do that, it just changes the world. It makes such a difference because if that happened to me, that could happen to a client.
Michele (49:17) Oh, yeah, I was in the Gaylord Opryland Hotel last year at the International Window Covering Expo, and they had a chart, or maybe a plaque. I guess it's better than a chart. And it was back in the room where... It wasn't up to where clients could normally see. It was in a room, the back of the house. Yes, that they left the door open next to the elevators. And of course, I'm peeking in to see what's in there. And it's kind of like, Here are our values and here's our customer promise and they had it up all around so that anybody who works there could see it and know it and know what to do. In my AIM methodology, the very first A stands for aligning your teams. And those are internal teams, external teams, and support teams, which we've kind of touched on. And one of the things that I am going to be focused on over this next year is helping my clients coach their people.
Kimberly (50:17) That's great. Oh, that's going to have such value.
Michele (50:20) Yeah. So you're not only coaching them on how to do their job, and what are the expectations, but you're coaching them on how to live the brand. And here's what I find interesting. Putting the company and the brand values in order. Because if you ever have to go against two values.
Kimberly (50:39) Yes.
Michele (50:39) One takes precedence.
Kimberly (50:40) Yeah.
Michele (50:41) Right. Kindness and something else. Well, kindness is going to always maybe show up first. I'm just using that as an example. What happens to me is when these people don't know how to live out the brand. It is because they don't know the boundaries. They don't have expectations set. They don't know how far. They've not been empowered to know how far they can reach and in what way they can manage what's happening. And so when they feel out of control in that position, then they blow up and they maybe fall back on fear or whatever. As opposed to going, you know, what our company brand statement is, we're going to work with integrity, and we will solve your problem. And if that's what our brand promises, and that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to be able to rest at this moment, knowing that no matter what happens, we're going to make it right and fix it. And I've been empowered to do A, B and C, and then they can go forward with that.
Kimberly (51:39) Yeah, I find that when we do all of this brand work, and I'm sure a lot of what you do, too, it helps us. It almost gives you a compass and some guideposts and some guardrails. That's where I think the confidence is built because you're like, "Oh, look, I feel very comfortable making this decision because I know I need to stay within this and this, this and that." It's just doing that work. The marketing, branding part is not kind of fun, festive... It can feel so intangible because often branding is. I think that's one reason people have a hard time wrapping their brains around it because it's not so black and white. But when you get in there, it starts to make sense. Once we get through brand clarity, the other three C's become fun. You and I have been talking about this entire time, it's just taking that step and seeing the value. That's one of my jobs is to make sure my clients understand the value of spending the time and money on branding and client experience. What is the real value for them? And so that's one of the communications that I'm constantly thinking about. How does this change their businesses when they spend time on this?
Michele (52:50) Well, don't we all want to know that, right? Here's what happens. I've seen the same thing when they're choosing whether they should work with a coach or do whatever you can think In the blank with any of those opportunities. We're all looking at return on investment. But what we don't maybe sometimes understand is small choices, small work can sometimes lead to really big outcomes. We have to stop and take a look at it, these things aren't going to happen on their own. I certainly wish they would. But they don't.
Kimberly (53:20) They don't.
Michele (53:21) They don't. And it takes commitment. It takes commitment to work in my programs. It takes commitment to work in your programs. Even the commitment of stopping and getting quiet, to hear your own voice, and to hear yourself think that it's not easy. Especially when we feel like there's client work waiting. And we then feel guilty for stopping to do the work of moving us forward. Which then means that we don't always have a sustainable company.
Kimberly (53:50) Right.
Michele (53:50) Because we focus so much on everybody else's mask instead of the one for our own business.
Michele (53:54) Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I do the same thing. I take time on weekends where I'm very quiet. And I'm all for working on my own business. This is business development time. And I don't think I've ever done a coaching session where the mindset wasn't a part of it. Because the truth is, what we believe based on atomic habits and my 50 something years of living, what we believe, dictates our identity, which dictates our actions. And so we have to go back. When I have an incongruent action or an outcome that is incongruent with what I think I want, I have to go back to the belief that fueled my identity, that field of action. I always have to go back and change my beliefs. There's usually something holding me back there. And even the idea that I got to go sell myself, which I don't like. Well then when I realize I'm providing a solution, that's a mindset shift. Those small changes then can alleviate the stress that we didn't even need to have in the first place.
Kimberly (53:55) Absolutely. And I think you probably do this too. I spend, it's not the majority of the time with my clients at all, but I spend some time on mindset. Learning how to hear yourself and what you can do. And it wasn't because I was like, "Okay, this is part of my program." It's because my clients kept asking for it. I do a personal retreat. That means all by myself, no one else about four times a year. Where I go, and this is a business personal retreat, I figure things out about my business. And I've just had so many breakthroughs when I've done that, and I often tell people about it. "Oh, this is where it was last weekend or whatever." And my clients have asked, "Will you just bring just a smidge of that into our work together? Because that's something that will help me ." It is what you just said, "Learning how to listen to yourself and be quiet." Being quiet is undervalued. It is so important. We can't hear ourselves. We can't hear what our heart is saying and what we need to hear until we're quiet.
Kimberly (56:03) Yep. And I decided I'm going to take this as a huge compliment. Someone I don't know very well, we were in sort of a mastermind group together. And I was telling her about one of these personal retreats. She said, "Kimberly, I love you because you're not woo-woo you're just woo, like with a lowercase. You got just enough of that stuff where it doesn't freak me out. And it's really helpful.
Michele (56:25) But it's true.
Kimberly (56:27) It is. So all of that it's not just all self-help books that we laughed at in the '80s. All of this mindset works, again, it's real. And it matters. And I think especially as women and business owners, we have to carve some time in our lives to do this because it helps us be better people. And it helps be better selves. So we understand ourselves better. We hear ourselves more clearly. And of course, in the end, we run our businesses from a different perspective and do that better also and have more confidence.
Michele (57:05) So true. So Kimberly, as we wrap up, I want you to talk to us a little bit about your brand audit. We have some joint clients and I've seen your brand audits at work. And they are, first of all, they're beautifully done and displayed. But outside of being beautiful, they are chock full of information for the business owner that's trying to understand maybe that brand consistency piece, right? Like, how am I showing up, or I always go, "Are you picking up what I'm putting down?" You're showing them what you're picking up from where they're showing up. Just share with us a minute or two on your brand audit.
Kimberly (57:47) Yes.
Michele (57:48) Then we'll make sure we have a link in the show notes for that.
Kimberly (57:50) Perfect. Yeah, that's a good idea. So I call it The Online Brand experience audit. And I don't know if the listeners are familiar with the term secret shopper. Retail does it a lot. Where someone pretends to be a customer. I call it a brand audit that meets a secret shopper. And I do everything that a prospective client might do. And one of my gifts is I can be incredibly empathetic. And I can understand how other people think and what they're feeling. So I become your client. And I have like four or five different scenarios where this prospective client might have found you. I google all of those different things. I do report on what happens when I google all of these words, not knowing your keyword. I'm not doing an SEO audit yet. But I'm your client. So then I go in and I look at your social media, you send me any collateral that someone may pick up somewhere to a show house or at a market. I do the technical aspect, the audit aspect of saying, "Oh, this makes sense. This flows well. Where's your call to action? Why aren't I signing up for an email? Where are your broken links?" Do all that technical part. But the other part I love to look at is, what is the experience I'm having when I'm on your Instagram or when I'm on your website? And what is the story I'm telling myself about you? Am I having any sort of emotional connection? What do I think about hiring you? Do I think anything? Are you saying anything? Is it just a bunch of beautiful pictures? Or you're not gonna believe it. I find this a lot. Do you even have any beautiful pictures? Are they all tiny?
There are just so many different things. So I go through and I'm the person who wants to hire a designer in Nashville or wherever we are. And I put together a report that explains all of that. And then tells you my recommendations. First of all the stuff that you need to fix. That's kind of the easy part. I don't just do brand experience audits where they need to be fixed. I say This is where you are rocking it. And this is what's so good because that's important too because it kind of gives them something to look back on. Oh, this is good. Am I doing what I'm doing here? Am I doing it in this other part of my business? And it's just a detailed, HD snapshot on your business. I signed up for your email list, and I tell you what that feels like when I get all of your emails. I asked you to send me your agreements, anything that I might receive from you before we have our initial meeting in person. I just think it shows you a lot of things both what you need to fix and what you're doing great. A lot of designers I know have their websites on Squarespace. And I also work in Squarespace. And so for some of those things, I'm like, "You know what, here's a video I'm gonna make." I just did this the other day for someone. I said, "I was gonna do a quick video on how you can fix this yourself on Squarespace." I think that's one of the beauties of Squarespace. I don't think you should have to hire someone every tiny, tiny, tiny edit that you need to do. So I'll link to this blog post to understand this and go to this video and you can do this yourself. It's not going to take you three hours, it's gonna take you 10 minutes. So, That's The Online Brand Experience Audit and everyone seems to enjoy it. They just get so much information so quickly, because it doesn't take months, it takes a few days.
Michele (1:01:14) Well, and I love the fact that you're coming at it from that customer, right? It's all about the lens that we're looking through.
Kimberly (1:01:22) Right.
Michele (1:01:22) There's one way to audit it with SEO. There's another way to audit for this and audit for that. But this is what that prospective client is. Where are they going? What do they feel like? If we are not showing up well at the very beginning, we're not setting a high goal here for the rest of the relationship. Right?
Kimberly (1:01:42) Right.
Michele (1:01:42) We do show up excellent. We've got to maintain that excellence. And so that brand audit allows us to kind of wrap our arms around that. And I know even from my own experience, having built things over the years, sometimes we forget that link. We might have a broken link. We might have a link that hasn't been updated with our new branding, or with our new way of explaining things. Even now I'm changing things. And I'm having to go back through my kind of mental calculations of where did I do that? Where did I use that? Where else is that gonna show up? What am I missing? What's connected?
Michele (1:01:46) So just having that third party look at it with a fresh view is super important.
Kimberly (1:02:24) Yeah, it is. It gives you tactical tools and tactical things that you can do quickly, but it also gives you concepts and ideas to think about when it comes to the experience. Since you're talking about broken links, I think one of my favorite things for people to do. Talk about taking a fail and turning it into a win. Do you know the 404 pages have not found a page so you have a broken link you're sent to a 404 page? That is such an opportunity because it's gonna happen. Someone's going to either type something in wrong or they think it's KimberlySundt.com/ something, but I've changed it or whatever, that 404 pages.
Most of the time people are like, "What?" They don't think it's their fault. They think it's your fault. And so addressing that and turning into something fun that is still on-brand. I have a blog post that will link and even a checklist that if you want to do this yourself, or you want to give it to the person who does your website. To make sure that your 404 page is such a strong marketing opportunity to help people trust you to make sure you look at a really well done 404 page and you know more about the business. You think they know what I'm looking for. They know even though I went to the wrong place. They're admitting it was their fault. And I understand their brand more since I landed on this 404 page. I think everyone needs to do it because it's going to happen to everybody. So yeah, let's make sure we link to that because it's a fun blog post too. I give about 10 examples of great 404 pages.
Michele (1:03:53) Perfect. So Kimberly, tell us where we can find you.
Kimberly (1:03:57) My website is KimberlySundt.com. So that's pretty simple. You can also get to my blog there, which has a lot of tips, I do about 70% on client experience and marketing and branding. Then the other 30% on mindset and how we just take care and self-care. What we do for ourselves. And then the best social media, the place I love to hang on the most. It's Instagram, it's at Kimberly Sundt. So it's pretty simple.
Michele (1:04:21) Perfect. Well, we'll have all of those links in the show notes. And I just want to thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for sharing, and I look forward to continuing to work with you for our joint clients.
Kimberly (1:04:32) I know it's gonna be fun, and this has been a blast. I loved it. So thank you for the conversation.
Michele (1:04:38) You're so welcome. Have a great day.
Kimberly (1:04:40) Okay, talk to you soon. Bye.
Michele (1:04:42) Thanks so much to Kimberly, for joining us today. Listen, we all want confidence in our business. I do, you do. We all do. Everybody does. And I'm just here to tell you that that takes work and commitment. Confidence comes from the doing, not just the talking about. And so if you are ready to dig in and gain clarity and confidence in controlling your business. Go to ScarletThreadConsulting.com and sign up for a strategy call. We'd love to help you scale your business with ease. Remember, profit doesn't happen by accident.